Discussion with by a professor evangelical theology department faculty of the university them. Martina Luther in Halle

Jörg Dierken

"The overall goal of state and churches - to work together to ensure access to religious education..."

Dierken Jörg - Evangelical Theological Faculty of the Martin Luther University in Halle-Wittenberg (Germany). oerg.dierken@theologie. uni-halle.de

The interview with Dr. Dierken starts with constitutional foundations of the phenomenon of theological departments in German universities. He draws a Protestant perspective on the status of theology as a science, the interaction of Church and State bodies, and the relationship between the statuses of theology professor and pastor. Dr. Dierken also deals with the distinction between theology and religious studies. He then tells about his participation in interdisciplinary commissions dealing with cases at the intersection of medicine, ethics, and law. Speaking about the similarity of theology and other university disciplines, Dr. Dierken draws upon his experience as a Dean of the Department of Humanities at the University of Hamburg, in 2005-2008.

Keywords: theology, religious studies, science, university, Church and State, constitutional law, religious education.

J. Dirken "The common task of the state and churches is to provide access to religious education through joint efforts..." (interview) / / State, Religion, Church in Russia and abroad. 2016. N 3. pp. 285-298.

Dierken, Jörg (2016) "The overall goal of state and churches - to work together to ensure access to religious education..."(interview), Gosudarstvo, religiia, tserkov' v Rossii i za rubezhom 34(3): 285-298.

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To You had a chance in the process studies and works acquaint with whole nearby theological issues departments in Germany...

Joerg Dirken: With five. I also spent a year working on habilitation in Vienna and Chicago. Then I ended up at the University of Hamburg, where at that time there was no faculty of theology - only the so-called theological department, where I worked for 15 years. Since 2005, the University of Hamburg has been merging seven departments (languages, Literature, Art, philosophy, History, theology, Orientalism) into one large faculty of Humanities, and I was elected Dean of this new faculty [1] (I worked in this position for several years). Other departments were also merged, of which there were 19 in total, and the theological department was the smallest. At the same time, very different subjects fell into one faculty, and so a large natural science faculty, a large humanitarian faculty, a law faculty, a medical faculty, a pedagogical faculty, and so on were created. Theology tried to remain independent and for a long time resisted introduction to the Faculty of Humanities. But such autonomy was impossible here, because Hamburg did not have the corresponding state-church status. These are local features.

What you you have in by type, speaking about state-church relations status?

In Hamburg, there was no state-church treaty (Staatskirchenvertrag). Politicians assumed that theology would disappear altogether (it was planned to leave three professorships to train religious teachers). The main political force of the city is the port economy. These are pragmatic citizens, rich merchants who opposed the establishment of their own university in the XVIII-XIX centuries. Firstly, for financial reasons, and secondly, because the professors represented civil society with its inconvenient demands. Therefore, the Hamburg merchants sent their children to study at the universities of Göttingen, Leipzig, and Berlin.

1. In German universities, the position of dean is elective and at the same time transitional (from professor to professor, in turn). The dean's office usually lasts four years.

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But after the First World War, in 1919, a wealthy merchant founded the University of Hamburg.

But in him not it was theology department faculty?

Yes, it wasn't. As it was not in Frankfurt and Cologne. Large universities appeared in these cities due to civic activity, the middle class, that is, they were not land universities founded by any land prince (as, for example, Wittenberg or Tubingen). In Frankfurt, they debated whether to create three theological faculties at once - evangelical, Catholic and Jewish (because there was a strong Jewish community there), but in the end, they refused to create a theological faculty at all. In Cologne and Hamburg, the situation was similar. In Hamburg, a compromise was found: the chief pastors of the main churches were to train theologians, 2 that is, the model of ecclesiastical rather than university education won. After the Second World War, in 1954, the Faculty of Theology was established in Hamburg in recognition of the achievements of the opposition during National Socialism (the famous ethicist Helmut Tillicke, as well as Paul Tillich, taught here). However, in the 1970s, the Faculty of Theology became the Department of Evangelical Theology, and at that time there was no Catholic theology in Hamburg; in the 2000s, faculties were created again. In Hamburg, theology had a strong position also because it was under attack from politicians, and this led to other humanities disciplines to align themselves with theology, because they understood that they could also be reduced.

Why politicians attacked exactly on theology, but not on other disciplines?

Politicians believed that theology could be saved without much resistance - both from the church and from the university. This land church also had a faculty of theology in Kiel, and this was considered sufficient. The main argument was that the bishop was not in Hamburg,

2. The "main church" in German Protestantism is the church of the superintendent, i.e., the dean.

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and in Kiel. And the politicians decided that theology should be abolished in Hamburg-19 professors should be reduced to three, leaving a small institute for teacher training. There, they were going to leave 30 out of 150 humanities professors, and transfer the rest to the disposal of financial, economic and natural science subjects. In other words, all the humanities are in danger, because they are, so to speak, economically useless. Politicians insisted that the university should train primarily economists and natural scientists. And theology fought politicians for life, like David and Goliath.

And all because, what in Hamburg not it was state-ecclesiastical the agreement. What this still this?

In Germany, all theological faculties are based on constitutional law. The Constitution (Main Articles 1-20) contains two articles directly devoted to religion: article 4 deals with freedom of religion, and article 7 contains instructions on school and upbringing. According to article 4, religious communities have the right of self-government, and, accordingly, all religious organizations recognized by the state have the right to conclude a so-called "state-church contract". For various reasons, such agreements were not concluded everywhere - Hamburg, Bremen, Berlin did not have such agreements (in Hamburg, it still appeared later).

The crucial point here is the right to self-determination, which means that every religious community - Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Orthodox, etc. - can determine for itself what a religion is. At the same time, freedom of religion is not unlimited. Restrictions take effect where religious freedom invades the sphere of freedom of others (for example, there is a conflict over the prohibition of Muslim girls from attending swimming lessons with children of both sexes). The concept of religious freedom also implies negative freedom, i.e. the right not to profess any religion or to be an atheist.

State remains ideologically neutral?

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Yes. Although, strictly speaking, this is also a worldview position - not to profess any religion. The position of the state is that it does not have the competence to judge ideological things, but regulates actions committed on religious grounds (for example, in the sphere of family conflicts, in matters of tax privileges, etc.). Sometimes it gets to the point of absurdity. For example, when Germany passed a law on the protection of non-smokers in public places, in Schleswig-Holstein the Union of Restaurateurs stated that they have restaurants where religious activities involving controlled tobacco smoking are carried out, and therefore, on the basis of religious freedom, smoking should be allowed in these restaurants.

And who but gives expert services conclusions by similar reasons?

This is a difficult question. In this case, the examination showed that all this has nothing to do with religion. But such cases demonstrate that the state is in a constant balance: on the one hand, it must be religiously and ideologically neutral, and on the other hand, it must have criteria based on which it can judge what should be protected and what should not be. In other words, the state must distinguish between religion and, say, financial interests (as in the case of Scientology). Therefore, the state has to constantly observe neutrality and at the same time make some references to what the religious society itself calls religion. There are a number of criteria by which churches are recognized or not recognized by the state. In principle, this is the number of members and the duration of existence. This is stated in article 140 of the Weimar Constitution, which formed the basis of the relevant law.

But how many years implies this "duration existence"?

It simply says "duration of existence". The state must constantly weigh everything anew, it has to work with analogies, that is, develop criteria for what religion is, and the criteria are created on the basis of the Christian tradition. Islam, for example, is organized differently, and the state has

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there is no institutional partner to negotiate with. Therefore, in all disputes (as in the case of a joint swimming lesson), auxiliary structures are created in the form of Muslim councils and commissions, since the state assumes that the organizational form of a particular religion is its partner, to whom it can turn if necessary.

But how affairs the situation is as follows in university, which too ideologically neutral? Because on theological issues departments actually there is "ideology", if take advantage of secular terminology. No whether here contradictions?

There is no state church in Germany, so there are no state church bodies. But there is an idea that the law on religious freedom implies the protection of churches and a positive assessment of the presence of churches and religions in public space. Therefore, the State and the churches consider the field of education and upbringing to be their common task. This applies, for example, to teaching religion at school: religion is included in the curriculum. The idea is that children should receive an education in the field of religion in order to be able to adequately exercise their right to freedom of religion, both in a negative and positive sense. The common task of the State and the churches is to work together to ensure access to religious education, both through the training of religious teachers and through the training of church personnel. The state is responsible for observing the pedagogical and scientific principles of education, but the content is determined not by the state, but by the churches themselves.

But because that, what at protestants presents by myself correct teaching, at catholics can be considered how heresy. It turns out, what university programs theologians subjected to friend friend doubt on based on confessional accessories. Compatible whether similar products considerations with scientific?

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Yes, they are compatible. The idea is not to reject each other on scientific grounds. Differences occur in the area of certain religious beliefs. The State expects theologians to be as scientific and based on the same criteria as historians, for example.

Historian works with facts, subject areas verification. Than in this meaning it has theologian? Can whether "check" God?

As a theologian, I must be able to introduce into rational discourse the grounds on which believers speak about God. Theologians should be able to report on this. And the university is a scientific environment, a place where the rationality of such a report is necessary and expected on the basis of the same criteria on which, say, philosophy is based.

Then, can to be, enough philosophy?

No. Here we come to the question of the unity of the various fields that make up university theology. Systematic theology should give an account of the significance (Geltung) and limits of the "word about God". At the same time, it is particularly associated with philosophy, sociology, and the humanities. In theology, we also deal with the historical dimension. Related disciplines here are historical sciences, orientalism, Hebraism, ancient languages, and so on. Church history works with secular history. Theology also includes other areas that are more focused on practical issues, and theology's partners here are pedagogy and psychology. To study the Old and New Testaments, we need ancient languages, religious history [ ... ] East, the history of the Ancient world. As you can see, one philosophy is not enough here.

It turns out, what theology presents by myself bouquet all kinds of disciplines, from each one from which ones it takes little by little. Can whether then generally seriously perceive his how an independent one science?

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If theology wants to be taken seriously, then of course it faces a challenge: it must be able to speak with all these disciplines on an equal footing and at the same time bring into the conversation something special that distinguishes the Christian faith, formulate this special in a rational language in order to convey it to the interlocutors understandable for them in this way. In other words, in all these disciplines, theology must present in an accessible and adequate way what distinguishes it from them, and at the same time participate in the current discourse with the secular sciences on an equal footing with them. Theological statements formulated in a manner that does not conform to rational standards and therefore is not accepted by secular related disciplines have no place in the university.

Protestants and Catholics mutually recognize it scientific reports degrees?

Only partly, because religion is a matter for the "religious community" itself. The Catholic religious community will not accept a Protestant as a cleric, and vice versa.

But if Catholics and protestants in university card environment friend friend not recognize it (in volume, what applies to scientific degrees), that how but representatives others sciences' can seriously relate to theologians?

In the field of scientific research, they can. A Catholic, for example, can write an exegetical commentary on the Bible, which Protestants will appreciate as a good scientific work. Even a secular historian can make a significant contribution to theology. Therefore, we have a constant borderline communication between theology and related secular disciplines, as well as between theologies of different faiths. But all this should not violate the principle that the "religious community" has the right to self-determination, that is, it determines what is Catholicism, what is Protestantism, what is Orthodoxy, etc.

If content theology department define ourselves "religious communities", means whether this, what on theologian faculty in Gal-

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le, dean's office which one you you are, last word remains behind a bishop?

The bishop will have the last word only if I, as the dean of the Faculty of Theology, start calling for teaching atheism or scientific communism.

And all same as: has whether bishop any problems controlling parties functions on faculty?

Unlike Catholic faculties, where bishops have much more authority to take action, for example, against heresy, the powers of bishops in Protestant faculties are much more limited. This is due to the fact that in the framework of the Wittenberg Reformation, the so-called "disciplinary and doctrinal proceedings"were held3 (Lehrzuchtverfahren) was declared the subject of joint powers of bishops and professors of theological faculties.

That there is Professor theology department assigned to not by a university, but theological issues by faculty together with a bishop?

When appointing a professor chosen by the Faculty of Theology, the rector must obtain the consent of the local bishop. In Germany, there were cases when professors of theology (both Catholics and Protestants) were excluded from the faculty for the reason that they taught things that did not correspond to the faith of their "religious community".

This Means, what, accepting new one professors, theological department faculty checks it out accordance his views a creed?

Checks, of course, first of all when there is a reason for doubt. (Among Catholics, the most famous case is Hans Kyung.) But there is no such thing as an" exam " in the ordinary sense of the word.

3. Proceedings that result in the church dismissing a university theologian or pastor who preaches alien teachings and views.

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All whether professors theology department ordained in pastors?

It happens that some professors used to be pastors, that is, they are ordained. I, for example, passed the vicariate.

What such The vicariate ?

A vicariate is a practical preparation for pastoral ministry, similar to that of teachers or lawyers ("refendariat"). before the second state exam. This is the second two-year training phase for pastors, teachers, and judges. After my curacy, I was ordained a pastor. Some land churches ordain professors of theology after they have passed the competition for the Faculty of Theology.

If Professor is as a pastor, serves whether he on the parish?

In principle, this is, of course, assumed. But in practice, professorship and pastoral care are incompatible. Professors have to leave the pastoral ministry.

Membership in churches is a condition, to to become by a professor theology department faculty appropriate religious denominations. Concern whether this to students?

No, students are not required to do this. Only by the time the student passes the exam that qualifies him to become a pastor.

That there is, starting out studying on theologian faculty, not need to be as a member of some sort a specific one a parish? But baptized, probably, still need to be?

And you don't have to be baptized, because the Faculty of Theology is a state educational institution. We have unbaptized students in our faculty. Some then, having become more familiar with Christianity in the process of studying, accept

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christening. But there are also those who are simply interested in theology. They can become, for example, journalists.

Why but such students not learning simply philosophies or religious studies?

They can study there, too, if religious studies can tell us what Christianity is, from the inside out. But religious studies is the academic study of religious subjects while simultaneously excluding the internal perspective, that is, the perspective of the native speaker. The fundamental difference is that the theologian deals with the claim of faith, religion to truth and significance, and the religious scholar leaves such claims out of brackets.

But on doors your of your merchant profile this means: "Professor systematic theology department and religious studies"...

There are purely organizational considerations behind this label. But I constantly strive to overcome boundaries: from theology to philosophy, to religious studies, from the perspective of a native speaker to the perspective of an outsider. My task is to convincingly convey a purely Christian content in its internal logic to those who do not know it or do not accept it. A discussion is possible only if both sides talk about one thing in common, otherwise the conversation will not take place. For this purpose, on the one hand, information is needed, and on the other hand, the specifics of religion must be identified and formulated. The latter, in turn, implies an understanding of why this speech is possible in the first person ("I believe", "we believe"), that is, how the confession of faith is formulated. Such things cannot be explained from a third-person perspective, because religion is something that relates to my own personality, to my being as a subject, to my" heart and conscience, " in Luther's words. The Christian religion is not only related to external rituals, it is also related to my inner content. Belief in the truth, confidence in the truth-all this cannot be left out of brackets. Otherwise, of course, we will have a certain layer of religion, but the core itself will remain out of sight.

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You do you teach also ethics and, probably, are you participating in working hours some kind of interdisciplinary projects commissions. Not do you notice whether you ironies in mine address with sides representatives others disciplines - by about their "claims on the truth"?

No. Because after all, philosophy works with theories of truth, and the mode of the subject of jurisprudence is the same "significance". Laws, norms, are not what we have as a fact in our experience; they are all modal prescriptions, that is, prescriptions in the mode of duty. There are many points of common ground between religion and normativity. And the university is needed so that all this does not get mixed up in a bunch, in order to identify and preserve the differences between disciplines and approaches. The university is capable of this because differentiated thinking, search, formulation and consideration of arguments and counterarguments is, so to speak, a trademark of the scientific, university environment.

It happens, of course, that theologians do not go beyond the limits of their faculty, but if everything goes well, then there is an exchange - with lawyers, doctors. So, I work in the interdisciplinary working group "Medicine-Ethics-law", in the ethics commission at the university clinic, where cases that are borderline in the ethical sense are dealt with or topical issues of ethics are discussed. I also participate in the work of the Interdisciplinary Center for the Study of the European Enlightenment, along with historians, philologists, and philosophers.

Who but you - etic or theologian?

Theologian. Ethics is a part of systematic theology. Systematic theology is divided into three areas. (1) Religious philosophy (philosophy of religion), or the theological doctrine of principles (in Catholic terminology - "fundamental theology"). Here we are talking about the questions: is religion an object of reason? is it possible to be on the side of religion in the face of (philosophical) criticism of religion? The relationship between religion and culture is also discussed here. (2) Dogmatics, that is, the field that embraces the church's doctrine of faith in the narrow sense of the word. The boundaries of dogmatics are fairly stable: the doctrine of God,

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triadology, Christology, pneumatology, soteriology, ecclesiology, eschatology, the doctrine of sin, etc. (3) Ethics. On the one hand, it is a discipline that deals with the consequences of showing faith in actions, and on the other hand, these questions entail questions about the right actions, about creating guidelines. Therefore, ethics deals with the problems and issues of contemporary culture in and out of the church. Ethics is faced with the need to constantly cross the boundaries of different disciplines. I consider ethics through the movement from the general to the specific. What is common is, for example, the relationship between religion and politics. It concerns the ethics of the state, such issues as democracy, human rights, the legal structure of the state, the relationship between religion and law, and the question of the boundaries of religion. The second common field is economics. I am constantly asked questions: is capitalism ethically justified? what do theologians say about the crisis of financial markets, about the problems of "trust, reliability, credit" in the economy? After all, all these concepts have a theological, religious origin. The third area of ethics is what used to be called "family and marriage issues", and today is called the ethics of generations and genders. Here we are talking about generational relations, issues of adoption, artificial insemination, and so on. The fourth area is medical ethics; it deals with the human body from the point of view of others - doctors, medical personnel, and health insurance issues (here we again enter the sphere of theology's relationship with economics and politics, because we are dealing with the political framework and conditions created for insurance companies).

Students, learners the economy, they come in on yours lectures?

It happens that they come. Or they ask me to give them a lecture.

It turns out, what economics students we must visit theological issues lectures and seminars?

No, you don't have to. But students studying Medicine-Ethics-Law should attend my lectures, as well as lawyers.

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Means, state concerned ethical issues questions?

The State makes a certain number of prescriptions for cases in which ethical advice is required. I have already mentioned the ethics committee of the university clinic. Most often, representatives of theological ethics also take part in its work, but there may also be philosophers. At the highest political level, we have a German ethics council. Similar councils also work at the level of individual states, at the regional level. We also have ethics commissions attached to professional organizations, such as a Medical ward.

That there is may to say, what church in some meaning permeates the state?

In part, you can say so. It is not for nothing that they say that in Germany the separation of church and state is "lame" ("hinkende Trennung" von Staat und Kirche). That's one side of the story. And the other side is that the state needs to constantly update the moral and religious guidelines of citizens. It cannot provide these guidelines on its own, because it is obliged to observe neutrality.

You do you notice some kind of resistance to your presence theology department in society?

There is resistance. Its intensity depends on the political views of the specific people we are dealing with. After all, churches are also actors of civil society. We are faced with a whole range of positions: from simply non-ecclesiastical to anti-ecclesiastical. And this is the area of public discussion, the struggle of arguments. Here we are talking about a civilized public discourse. Questions of worldview, religious issues are an integral part of it.

I talked to you Anna Briskin-Muller

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